Conv-CIB and Rank - Spc vs Cpl

From: Guy Slater

Dated: January 12, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

Preston,
I got damned lucky. I didn't carry the radio or the M-60 when I was assigned Infantry. I guess I was too tall for the radio at 6'5". I was already a standing target (but at 165, all I needed to do was turn sideways, and the bullets passed on by. Yeah. Right.) But I did carry an over/under (combination 16 and M-79 grenade launcher) AND all my ammo.
Guy

From: Bob Morecook

Dated: January 9, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

Hi Dickie

My understanding is that it does take an infantry MOS. Otherwise now you can get the CAB - Combat ACTION Badge.

Bob

From: Bill Altman

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

I don’t how the policy worked in other units. I was assigned to MACV tm3 with the 1st ARVN div in Hue and the region west and north to the DMZ. During the first few months, I was on the division advisory staff and was not eligible for the CIB. I became senior advisor to the division recon company and was in my first firefight on May 30,1971. Orders awarding my CIB are dated the following day.

Bill Altman AFRS news 1965

From: Forrest Brandt

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

Combat Infantrymen's Association » The Combat Infantryman... https://www.cibassoc.com/about/combat-infantryman-badge Dec 11, 2006 · The Combat Infantryman Badge (CIB) is an award of the United States Army which is presented to those officers, warrant officers and enlisted soldiers, in the grade of Colonel and below, who participate in active ground combat while assigned as a member of an infantry or Special Forces unit, brigade or smaller size, during any period subsequent to December 6, 1941.
Forrest

An 11B serving as a gunner and assigned to a transportation unit that comes under attack could not be awarded the CIB. A photographer assigned to a signal company or PIO detachment and comes under attack while covering an infantry unit and who takes part in the combat can not be awarded the CIB even though, technically, every swinging Richard in the army has an 11B MOS.
However, and I know this from an Ordnance Officer I met while with the 1st ID, an ordnance officer placed in command of an infantry platoon and who serves as the platoon commander in combat can be awarded the CIB because all LTs and CPTs carry a secondary MOS of 95A, small unit commander. This guy was pulled from a maint. unit and placed as a platoon leader during TET of 68 because they had run out of Infantry LTs.
Hope that answers all the questions.
Forrest

From: Preston Cluff

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

I can clear some of this up with specifics that I can personally attest to.
I was presented the CIB while with the 196th Inf. Bde. (Lt), and my MOS was 05B (radio/teletype operator).
There was a period -- minimum 1966 - 1967 -- where CIBs were authorized for other than 11Bs. It was explained to me that since I -- and others -- were on the front lines with the infantry element, we were in as much harm's way. Another MOS that fell into this area at the time was that of the forward artillery observer.
I have no idea if this, in my opinion, good logic is ongoing today or not.
Preston

AFVN Group Conversations

From: Frank Rogers

Dated: January 7, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

Group,
I got the tail end of a news story, but don’t know particulars. It was that after the soldier’s death "he was promoted from Specialist to Corporal.”
Does anyone know of this? Does the Army do such “promotion”?
Frank

From: Bob Morecook

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

The young lady soldier Guillen from Houston who was murdered at Fort Hood was promoted from Pfc to spec4 posthumously I believe.

Bob M

From: Frank Rogers

Dated: January 9, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

We can see in old movies of WW2 some Army Sgts had a T on their chevrons. I guess that was a forerunner of the Spec idea. I recall the derogatory expression "____ up like a T-5”.

Frank

From: Frank Rogers

Dated: January 7, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

Thx Col Dickie,
At Pusan Korea in 1962 a Transportation Company SP4 was made acting Sgt, wearing the stripes but not getting the pay. In those days promotions were harder to come by in some MOS. Some changes for the better since. Did some research and found some promotions were just to fill NCO leadership. No change in pay, just more responsibility.
CIB ? So why is a light weapons infantryman a Specialist.? Can't get a CIB or even an EIB?
Frank.

From: Steve Pennington

Dated: January 7, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

Yes, it was a story about a Fort Drum soldier murdered and he was posthumously made a Corporal from Spec. to make him an NCO. In some circumstances a service member is actually promoted posthumously. Not sure if it would have a pay raise with it for surviving spouses and dependents, or more like frocking.

SLP

From: Guy Slater

Dated: January 11, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

I'm former Signal Corps, and didn't know RTO wasn't a "hey you" job, but an MOS. Interesting article (some of it):
https://www.ourmilitary.com/rto-military/#:~:text=However%2C%20RTO%20as%20a%20MOS,Repairers%20within%20the%20US%20Army.
Guy

From: Frank Rogers

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

I would tend to agree with Bob. Research shows even Marines, Sailors and Coast Guards may receive and wear the CIB awarded while serving with Army or Air Force units, so why not Specialists ?.
Frank

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From: Bob Morecook

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

I have never heard that an SPC could not get a CIB Should be available to any enlisted or officer rank. Are you sure?

Bob

From: Forrest Brandt

Dated: January 10, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

No, the crucial part is to be assigned to an infantry unit. All enlisted personnel are 11Bs as a secondary MOS. Which I believe is why an RTO assigned to an infantry unit qualifies. RTO is his primary MOS and 11B is his second MOS.

From: Frank Rogers

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

While the Army was perpetuating second class or inferior status, the other branches did not, and still don’t. For the Navy, they have training and testing for job proficiency AND leadership. Recently I notice at the Naval hospital that there is no rank worn on work uniforms by Corpsmen until E-4, Third Class Petty Officer. I don’t know if that is the case elsewhere. For anyone not familiar with the symbols, the metallic “crow" and chevron for a Third Class at first glance would look like a Navy Captain. I have learned that an Air Force E4 Senior Airman is not considered an NCO as an E4 is in other branches. As a CPL, I had to give training but no trivial details like KP, which I became “eligible” for after converting to SP4. From SP5 I went to SSG E6.

FrankR

From: Dick Ellis

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

I was told that you had to have a combat MOS to get a Combat Infantry Badge...CIB.

dickie

From: Bob Morecook

Dated: January 9, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

Hi Dickie

The Army had some different ranks in WW2 - such as Tech Sergeant. My dad retired with 20 years in 61 and told me some of the old stories.

Bob M

From: Dick Ellis

Dated: January 7, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

Army Specialist 4 is a Corporal.....spec 5 is buck Sergeant......he could have been switched from Specialist to a 2 stripe Corporal so he could get CIB or other recognition which is not offered to a Specialist rank. ??????????

dickie

Note: the SPC E5 and SPC E6 were eliminated in 1985. Webmaster

From: Preston Cluff

Dated: January 11, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

Excellent piece, Guy. I carried that sucker for about nine months over there, for the Bn commander. Learning morse code was another requirement of the MOS (05B).
Preston

From: Steve Pennington

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

Frank, you are correct about AF Senior Airman. In the mid to late 60s when the AF grew so rapidly it needed NCOs, they decided to make 3 stripers Sgt (E4) and NCOs. In the early 80s the Senior Airman rank was established without a white star in the middle of the stripes. After a period of time you were appointed Sgt and NCO and changed stripes to have the white star in the middle to differentiate. You were still an E 4 and there was no change in pay. As tha AF got smaller and didn't need as many NCOs, the practice ended and you became a Senior Airman until you made Staff Sergeant, E 5. When I enlisted in early 1969 the Air Force had over 875 thousand and 58 B-52 wings. There are about 330 thousand today and only 2 B-52 wings.

SLP

From: Tim Bodle

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

I was told that you had to have a combat MOS to get a combat infantry Badge...CIB.... dickie

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CIB and Rank / Specialist vs Corporal

These two topics overlapped.

January 2021

From: Guy Slater

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

I also saw that write-up, and figured the author was a no-brain civilian. While CPL is the same pay grade as SP (it is no longer "SP4, because there are NO other existing Specialist Ranks), the "CPL" is an NCO, and the only reason I can see for the lateral grade transfer is to posthumously make the person an NCO.
Frank, yes, the Army does this, especially at the lower ranks. It used to be the case, when I was at the burn unit at Ft Sam Houston, that we would hold an active duty person in that position until death (providing death was expected due to the burn injury) and then back date their military retirement to the minute before death. It had to due with retirement benefits (and no, I never understood it. But we did it.)
Dick, The rank of the person does not affect their eligibility to receive and award or decoration at the lower ranks (it does at Flag Rank.) But, although SP and CPL are the same pay grade, they are not the same rank. There are different responsibilities (on paper, at least) for the two. (SP5 and SP6 were converted to SGT and SSG in 1985, and no longer exist. And, at the moment, we won't get into how I am the last SP6 on AD in November 86.)
Guy

From: Steve Pennington

Dated: January 9, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

Frank, right again. T-4 T-5, and at the beginning of the War First Sergeants were Platoon Sergeants wit a diamond, later in the War they were Master Sergeants with the diamond.

Steve

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The following was published in the Stars and Stripes in early February 2021. It appears that we may have another

"Specialist versus Whatever War" on our hands again.

Jim White, Webmaster

From: Bob Morecook

Dated: January 8, 2021

Subject: Spec vs Cpl

Frank et al I was an acting sergeant at Fort Hood. E4 pay but I had the stripes. When I went to Nam I had to go back to SP4 and make sp5 while there.

Bob M

From: Preston Cluff

Dated: January 10, 2021

Subject: CIB and Rank

Hi Dickie

I'm assuming you mean now (2020/21), Bob. I'm sure you read my reply recently, verifying an infantry MOS was not mandatory to receive the CIB when I was with the 196th. I have no idea if the policy in effect when I was with the infantry, changed in later years or not.
Preston