From: Jim White
Dated: March 17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
Rick, please look at the two attachments (maps) I sent out earlier today. To me, they indicate that 3 Dong Da could well have been inside or very close to the MACV Compound. That is my only reason for believing that it was where I think it was. Another point is that it would not have made any sense at all for John Bagwell to escape from 3 Dong Da and cross the river/canal south of and away from the MACV Compound. (Assuming I have the right church location.) Let's end this topic here.
Thanks, Jim W
SUMMARY
By Jim White and Jerry Nelson
This has been a rather long-way-around and sometimes frustrating experience, but both Jerry and I are sure we have the location of Det 5 during TET '68 pinpointed. In summary, it was located across from, and near the hospital--most likely near the power station or even perhaps just south of the university apartments [above map]. At first, based upon a map I downloaded from a message from Tom Pilsch and which shows that MACV was a much larger area (Click here). Note the red lines--the upper rectangle showing the city of Hue and the lower triangle showed the MACV3 compound.), we decided that Det 5 was very much "out in the boonies" perhaps near the center of the bottom right "square" outlined by the "kilometer lines." We also decided that perhaps the church where John Bagwell had hid out was the church shown by the upside down cross marked by the black symbol in the square directly to the east (left). However, Rick Fredericksen wrote that it was at "3 Dong Da." Harry Ettmueller confirmed that it was near the red "179" in the lower left corner of the triangle (messages above). Perhaps this closes this case.
Yours truly, the "Web Detectives"
Addendum
The above didn't really close the case. The first problem to the above was that I was thinking I had gotten the map from Facebook. I had really received it as an attachment to a February 6, 2018 message from Tom Pilsch. Then I completely forgot about the message--must have deleted it from my computer and then, on May 12th, or so, finally spotted it on Jerry Nelson's computer. Then, because I rather forgot this conversation page I ended up putting it at the bottom of the Det 5 page. In fact, if I had remembered Tom's message I might not even had to have had this conversation. Put, we did, so here it is.
Webmaster Jim White
From: Harry Ettmueller
Dated: March 17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
Yes, 3 Dong Da was south of the river and east of the canal. Our billets were directly behind on the next street. Behind us was the hospital. Between the billets and the hospital was a rice paddy.
From: Ron Turner
Dated: March 20, 2018
Subject: Det 5, Hue Postscript
I sort of think I recall that the last Det 5 [late 71 to early 72] was housed in the old Joan of Arc school [above map] which was just more or less across the street. How sure am I? I wouldn't want to bet on the accuracy.
Regards, Ron
From: Rick Frederickson
Dated: March 17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
My research is the Dong Da location, before, during, and now after Tet. My forthcoming story will cover this.
#3 Dong Da is not inside the MACV compound. I dont know where you are getting this information.
Rick Fredericksen
AFVN Group Conversations
From: Rick Fredericksen
Dated: March17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
I was just there last month. On Google maps, enter "3 Dong Da Street, Hue, Vietnam" and it will pop up. My story about the former U.S. Consulate is just days away.
Rick Fredericksen
From: Rick Fredericksen
Dated: March 17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
Jim, my research has centered only on the AFVN station when it was at #3 Dong Da. I know there was more than one location in Hue. I don't believe there was ever any radio operation. John arrived to help get a radio service started but Tet stopped that.
Dong Da is south of the Perfume River. Maps also show a small canal, or creek, south of Dong Da. Do not confuse the creek/canal with the river. Everyone has told me MACV was about a mile from Dong Da.
As for John's church, he'll have to respond to that. Perhaps it was destroyed--I know it was shelled. He never told me about crossing a river or creek. I don't know the date or source of your first map. Cant really figure it out. Hope this helps.
Rick Fredericksen
From: Jim White
Dated: March17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
To all, but to Harry and Rick in particular,
Harry: Here is another "bigger blow up" of the area in question. Hopefully it will help.
Rick: Also attached, is a screen print from Google Earth Pro. It shows basically the same area
To all: I am having a hard time reconciling things. Rick says that AFVN was a 3 Dong Da. But Goggle shows that is at least beside if not within the old MACV Compound north of the river. My understanding is that the compound which was attacked was south of the river. Also, John Bagwell hid in a church several days and the only church I find nearby is also south of the river. My timeline showing the history of the various detachments shows that Det 5 Hue opened in May 1967 possibly as just a radio station and (my memory tells me "inside the MACV Compound." Later it moved to wherever it was during the TET attach and I think that was south of the river and about a kilometer to a mile from the MACV Compound. Then in Det 5 reopened in Quang Tri in September 1968, then moved back to Hue in November 1971 and finally closed out in February 1972.
If, during TET AFVN was at 3 Dong Da, and John hid in the church after escaping during TET he must have gone south across the river and Det 5 was not as isolated as it has been pictured. I find both of these ideas very hard to swallow.
Jim W, the Puzzled
From: Jim White
Dated: March17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
Hi,
This is another attempt to pin down the location of Det 5, Hue. The large type is intended to help those of us who have problems with our vision (that includes me) so please don't be put off by it.
The explanation at the top of the attachment shows all that know--which isn't that much.
I have sent a bcc copy to Harry Ettmueller. I don't have a direct address for John Bagwell and am not sure if he participates in this group or not. Therefore, if any of you now how to forward this to him--please do so.
Thanks,
Jim W
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From: Ron Turner
Dated: March 19, 2018
Subject: Det 5, Hue
Perhaps this map may help. It came out of the Institute for Military Studies.
Ron T
More on Detachment, 5 Hue and TET 68 at
AFVN Organization / Detachment 5, Hue
AFVN Photos and Stories / Harry Ettmueller
AFVN Photos and Stories / Donat "Don" Gouin
From: Harry Ettmueller
Dated: March 15, 2018
Subject: Det 5, Hue - Location and Church
Hi Bob,
I just read a bunch of bullshit about the det... the guidon was not hidden on my body for 5 years. It was given to me by Novak when my sons and i visited him some years ago. Other than that shit hit the fan and DiBernardo turned out to be a pussy, and displayed cowardice under fire, USMC was noted [sic.] about this but did not pursue the issue since DOD let the maggots go and no punishment . John Deering [who] was adamant about DiBer and was pissed made sure those at 29 Palms was aware of his actions during the fire fight. No we were not a Class "A" station and had started broadcasting late April early May of 1967. Tom Young was with the unit from early Sept 67, Bagwell and Stroub came in Jan of 1968 from 1st Cav. None of the units mentioned got to Hue until just before Tet 68. I could go on but I only type with two fingers...lol. We were going to become a Class "A" station but had a run of bad luck... Mr. Charles had other ideas...lol.
From: Harry Ettmueller
Dated: March 17, 2018
Subject: Location on Det 5, Hue
79 [sic: 179]is the area marker for Det 5 and THVN as we were billeted on Le Thoug Ket. The streets intersect. We were hustled across the canal at this point directly south of that junction.
From: Harry Ettmueller
Dated: March 18, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
We were not that far from MACV 3 and the area for MACV was large, as it butted up against Prov Military HQ. We tried to get to MACV3 but were cut off and overrun. Hwy 1 ran thru Hue and MACV 3 was near the bridge along Hwy 1.
Location of Det 5, Hue During TET 1968
March 2018
From: Jim White
Dated: March 11, 2018
Subject: Det 5, Hue - Location and Church
Harry, I have posted a map of the Hue Citadel and AFVN compound to the AFVN Website (Click Here).
I don't have the key to the various places that are numbered, but most US military maps show black "outline blocks" for important places and/or US installations. Please go to the map,enlarge it with CTRL + scroll wheel and look at the lower right corner. There are two black "boxes" indicating they may be important sites. One is numbered "148" the other does not have a number. Could either one of them have been where AFVN's Det 5 was located? To the left in the next block is a symbol for a Catholic Church. Could that possibly be the location of the church where John Bagwell hid out after he escaped?
Your help with this would be greatly appreciated. After all, you are the only one left.
Thanks,
Jim White, Webmaster, AFVNVETS.NET
From: Rick Fredericksen
Dated: March 17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
A couple things Jim. I would suggest you double check your MACV location. The Dong Da location looks correct on the Goggle map. As for the other map, I'm uncertain what you want me to look for. I can offer no help regarding the church. Even John might not be able to locate it. He had only been in Hue 2 days and didn't know his way around yet. I'm happy to continue this discussion, but let's take it back channel.
Rick Fredericksen
From: Jim White
Dated: March 17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
Rick,
Thanks for the quick reply. I thought that your research had centered on the location of Det 5 during TET. Please compare the two attachments. As best as I (and Jerry Nelson) who is on Skype with me right now) can tell, 3 Dong Da is most likely inside the old MACV Compound. That will complete upset the story of Det 5 being isolated and alone when attacked. I agree that Dong Da is south of the Perfume river--as was nearly all of the MACV Compound. Whether or not the long narrow waterway to the south of the Perfume River is a "river or a drainage ditch or whatever"--I can't tell. Again, I don't know the full timeline regarding when or if radio was at Det 5 in Hue in 1967/68.
Regarding the church, it might have been destroyed but I am sure it is now rebuilt. Please look at my Google view attached with my previous message. On Google, the photo marker near the place I have indicated is the church shows a very Catholic religious statue. I.E., that must be a church.
Jerry agrees with this message.
Best wishes,
Jim W
From: Harry Ettmueller
Dated: March 17, 2018
Subject: Location of Det 5, Hue
If I could blow the map up larger I would be able to find land marks better and pin point AFVN/THVN original broadcasting position.