Conv-White Christmas

From: Jim White

Date: February 6, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Tim,

Please go to this link. It is Chuck Neil's story ("The Last Goodbye") plus some additional information at the bottom. Your question should be at least partially answered.

Best wishes,

Jim W

From: Tim Bodle

Date: February 6, 2013

Subject: White Xmas - Fact or Fiction

Who was the person that gave the station the go ahead to play "White Christmas"? I haven't heard that one yet.

From: Brian Wickham

Date: February 6, 2013

Subject: White Xmas

When I was at ABC Radio Net in Culver City, CA in 1974 we had one that was used to play commercial rollovers to another "leg" of the network. It was a pain to program that thing and I can understand why everyone had a pet name for it. I never really understood that machine.

Brian Wickham

From: John Holsomback

Date: February 5, 2013

Subject: White Xmas

Just for the record, the round device which held the tapes and the reel to reels were referred to as "PFC Gates" at the Da Nang Station.

Jack

From: John McNamara

Date: February 6, 2013

Subject: White Xmas

At Da Nang in 72 we called it "THE MONSTER."

John McNamara, Da Nang, 72-73

From: John Thomas

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas - Resend

Thanks for the feedback. I do remember the gates programmer, it was in the studio building. It had a large round, I'll call it, turntable that held the CARTS. I bet the transmitter was actually a 10KW with a 10x gain due to the antenna. BTW the TV xmitter was 25KW push pull output RCA. I think the 'effective radiated' power was around 300KW. Just more tech numbers... I think we were running 50KW AM. I never saw that transmitter. I do remember bringing up the little 50W AM transmitter every month while we did PM's on the FM xmitter. As you probably know the AM content was sent from the studio via the FM sub-carrier to the AM xmitter site. There might have been a landline backup that I was not aware of.

John

From: Rick Fredericksen

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: Look Familiar?

From: Rick Fredericksen

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas - Resend

Wow, it sounds like you are getting close to the definable source. Please ask if there is a recording (doubt it) and if he would mind a phone call from a reporter,please.

Thanks, Rick

From: Gary Brill

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas - Resend

Here's the sign-on for AFVN-fm, 100kw....BTW, anyone know who's voice this is for the FM sign on?

GarryB - Sunrise in Saigon 69-70

From: Ann Kelsey

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas

Neil doesn't mention the kw. However, I'm in touch with Larry Engelmann and he's going to try to find Chuck Neil, if he's still alive, so if I get in touch with him, I'll ask.

Ann

From: Ann Kelsey

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas

John,

According to Neil's account in Engelmann's book "...we had a big Gates Automatic Programmer. We programmed most of our day on that machine." (p. 201) The location of the station isn't specifically mentioned, but I get the sense from the narrative that it was the same as where AFVN was located at the time of the turnover in 1973.

Ann

From: John Thomas

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

I was reading the account by Chuck Neil and got to wondering. There was mention of operating on just FM at 100 thousand watts. Now you have to forgive me, I am a tech weenie. What did they do, put in a larger transmitter? Where was this located at, the old studio/transmitter site? I am just curious, I remember the 10KW Gates FM that I had in 71.

From: John Thomas

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Maybe I have it wrong. Was the FM transmitter a 100KW? I could have sworn it was only a 10KW. Oh well it really doesn't matter.

From: Jim Anderson

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Thanks for letting me know of the problem. I will contact some other members to determine what has happened. This is the website listed on the SMA newsletter I received this month.

Jim

From: Ann Kelsey

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Jim,

I tried to get to that website today, but it appears to be defunct. Picture of Fresno memorial came through pretty clearly. There is another Circle of Sisters plaque at the Angel Fire memorial in New Mexico.

Ann

From: Jim Anderson

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Thanks for letting me know of the problem. I will contact some other members to determine what has happened. This is the website listed on the SMA newsletter I received this month.

Jim

From: Jim Anderson

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

I tend to avoid Facebook but I know someone established an SMA site there a couple of years ago. Website for the Saigon Mission Association: www.saigonmsn.org Here is Ann's name, middle of the second row, on the Circle of Sisters Memorial at Fresno City College. I hope this comes through clearly.

Jim

From: Ann Kelsey

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

I'm sure you're right, Jim. I know Sally Vinyard pretty well and she doesn't mention White Christmas at all in her chapter in White Christmas in April. She was too busy trying to evacuate kids. According to Chuck Neil's chapter in Larry Engelmann's book, the whole idea of the code message and White Christmas was Ann Bottorf's. She was the PAO at DAO and died in the C5A Babylift crash in early April.

Someone from SMA has responded to my FB inquiry with a lot of interesting articles and blog posts, but only one person who has posted with a real name claims to have actually heard the broadcast. His name is Mike McNally, and I'm trying to track him down now. For those on Facebook, If you "like" the Saigon Mission Association page (not the first listing in the search hit list, which is a person), you can follow the thread.

Ann

From: Mike McNally

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Christmas in Saigon?

Thanks to Ann K. for tracking me down thru the Saigon Kids site, and Bob M. for admitting me to theAFVN Group. My name is Mike McNally. I was not an AFVN employee, but I probably heard more AFVN and American Radio Service broadcasts in Vietnam than almost anyone. I thank all the AFVN personnel for the great service they provided.

I arrived in Vietnam in May 1967 as an enlisted intel analyst (96B20). I left Vietnam on 30 Apr 1975 as a civilian attending the University of Maryland, Far East Division, Saigon. I was also inside the former AFVN facility on Hong Thap Tu Street at least one time in 1974, as a contract security officer for DAOsecurity. The local national guard at the facility came under DAO jurisdiction.

On 29 April 1975, I was living in an apartment building on Truong Tan Buu Street, located between Tan Son Nhut and Saigon. About 0400 hours I was awakened by the rocket attack on the Defense Attache Office, the former MACV Headquarters, which killed two Marines, Judge and McMahon.

Sometime during the morning, I was listening to the radio with another American and a Vietnamese woman. I heard White Christmas playing, but I recall thinking that it did not sound like the Bing Crosby's version. Chuck Neil, of Federal Electric Corporation, FEC, has written that he could not find the Bing Crosby version, so he substituted a version by Tennessee Ernie Ford. I then heard Chuck saying that "The Temperature in Saigon is 105 Degrees and Rising."

I was eventually evacuated off the roof of the embassy after midnight, 30 April 1975 Saigon time. I was not on the last helicopter.

I have a Masters in History from California State University, Los Angeles. I retired in 2011 from the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, as an electric station operator. I have a Vietnamese wife. I have not been back to Vietnam, but I have paid for many family members to go back for visits.

I am a member of three other Yahoo Groups, CICV, (Combined Intelligence Center Vietnam), MACV-DAO, and the 519th MI Battalion.

Thanks again to Ann and Bob. I'll try to peruse the past messages to see if there's anything about which I might have some knowledge. If anyone has any questions they think I might help with, please ask.

Thanks.Mike McNally, Walnut CA

From: Jim Anderson

Date: February 4, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Ann: I'm a member of the Saigon Mission Association and evacuated Saigon via Air America on April 29th as a civilian contractor. Many of the DAO/Embassy personnel had evacuated prior to April 29th and I haven't heard much discussion about "I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas" at the annual reunions. But I only became a member and started attending the reunions in the 90's. Toby Haynsworth attended the SMA reunion in Las Vegas, maybe 10 years ago to discuss his book. I assumed that the song was played but I haven't heard one person that evacuated Saigon that day say they heard it. We all agree that we were too busy with other concerns to be listening to a radio.

Jim

From: Ann Kelsey

Date: February 4, 2013:

White Xmas Fact or Fiction

The book that Chuck Neil's account is published in is Tears Before the Rain: An Oral History of the Fall of South Vietnam by Larry Engelmann (Oxford University Press, 1990). There are other accounts mentioning White Christmas as the signal for the beginning of Operation Frequent Wind including White Christmas in April: The Collapse of South Vietnam, 1975 by J. Edward Lee and Toby Haynsworth (Peter Lang, 1999).

The Saigon Mission Association (composed of people assigned to DAO Saigon) has a Facebook page although it is not terribly active. There is also a Facebook group focused on the Babylift crash that occurred earlier in April that Larry Engelmann has been posting on. I will post inquiries as to personal remembrances of White Christmas as the evacuation signal.

Ann

From: Rick Fredericksen

Date: February 3, 2013 (possibly February 2?)

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Thanks Jim. So some guy named Chuck Neil, who worked for American Radio Service, post AFVN, claims to have played the cart in question, on the air, on the way out of the station . Do we believe this? Anyone know this man? There are lots of other names and facts in his own story on our new website. Any suspicions, or are we to believe it?

Rick

From: Jim White

Date: February 3, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Rick,

FYI, the book is available as a paperback and I just ordered it plus "Kill Anything that Moves" but it will be a while before I get it because of my "shipping distance." Also, not sure what Bob can do to help. He had a recent computer disaster (HD died on him) so he has lost most all of his past files.

Jim W

From: Rick Fredericksen

Date: February 3, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Let's await the Morecook verdict on this. Anyone ever hear of a recording of this? Please weigh in Bob.

Rick

From: Jim White

Date: February 3, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Rick,

I got the story that is on AFVN-RADIO-TV.org from either Paul Kasper or Bob Morecook. Looking at past messages, I did find the following message from Bob.

QUOTE

AFVN Saigon closed down in March 1973, leaving behind one other enlisted trooper and me to train ARS -- the civilian "American Radio Service" radio run by Pacific Architects and Engineers. They got a contract for the station.

The other guy and I stayed another day or so -- it was supposed to be 90 days but we got kicked out early.

American Radio Service had ONLY the FM equipment -- the AM radio stuff was all shipped out of the country, much to AFKN. ARS did news live from the AP and UPI teletype. I do not know if they got AFTRS sound feeds too.

It was ARS who played White Christmas on the air as the message to get out of Saigon.

[I had the honor of being the last AFVN'er on the air -- as well as announcing the end of the Vietnam War on AFVN-TV -- Tom Fowlston announced the end of the war on AFVN radio. -- I got a call from PAO at MACV to put an automatic message up the day AFTER we signed off -- otherwise the CO LTC Hutchison was last person on the air.]

The White Christmas message is recounted in the oral history -- Tears before the Rain: An Oral History of the Fall of South Vietnam by Larry Engelmann. His account of the last days runs to a number of pages. The guy who provides the oral history in that book is one of the men I trained to do news for ARS.

Bob Morecook

END QUOTE

From: Roy Burnette

Date: February 2, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

I have read several accounts about the last hours of which none report White Christmas ever having been played. PBS had a series several years ago which featured an Australian reporter who stayed over for the NVA take over of the presidential palace in Saigon he indicated that he did not hear the song. So rumor is all I have.

From: Jim White

Date: February 3, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Rick,

My middle name isn't "Snoopes," but please take a look at AFVN-RADIO-TV.org which I published yesterday. Go to Historical Documents / Table of Contents and then scroll towards the bottom for a story about "White Christmas."

Jim W

From: Rick Fredericksen

Date: February 3, 2013

Subject: White Xmas Fact or Fiction

Hi gang,

Another Vietnam group that I belong to, and quite respected, is wondering if the White Xmas alert was ever issued or is it so much Vietnam lore. I'm a little embarrassed by my own ignorance, please set me, and others straight. When did it air, what aired, and who aired it? Any other bits and pieces of info are welcome.

Rick

"White Christmas" - Fact or Fiction?

February 2013, April 2014 & September 2014

Was the song, "White Christmas" actually used for the signal to evacuate Saigon?

With some discussion about the AM transmitters in Saigon and Da Nang.

AFVN Group Conversations

From: Tim Bodle

Date: February 6, 2013

Subject: White Xmas - Fact or Fiction

What ever happened to the VN engineer that I read sometime ago that decided to stay behind and play on air music? I don't remember if he stayed on the VN side or the American studios.

From: Jim White

Date: February 6, 2013

Subject: White Xmas

Sorry, I can not help you with that question. But, somewhere, someplace, while working on this site, (Something from Ron Turner?) I did read that a ARVN Officer locked himself into an unofficial radio booth in the Presidential Palace when the North Vietnamese took over and it took several days of desperate searching for them to find him. I don't know whether he was playing music, calling for everyone to rise and throw out the North or a combination of the two.

Jim W

From: Tim Bodle

Date: February 6, 2013

Subject: White Xmas - Fact or Fiction

I read the new site and it seems that a COL or LTC from the DAO called the station and gave the word.

From: Jim White

Date: February 6, 2013

Subject: White Xmas - Fact or Fiction

Seems so and possibly the name is unknown (or not remembered) by Chuck Neil.

Jim W